MARA BROCK AKIL: The world wasn’t being honest with kids about not only their feelings, but their feelings attached to this growing sensation and urge for sex. When I read the book, I knew I wasn’t ready for sex, but it was in my near future, and I was curious about what that would be like. And Forever gave us an honest peek into what we might be negotiating and navigating and figuring out.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome to We Disrupt This Broadcast. I’m your host, Gabe González. Today, we are talking about first love. Depending on where you are in life, it’s either a distant memory, a lingering lesson, or if you’re in it, the most encapsulating feeling you’ve ever had. But oof, hang in there, ’cause there is a lot more to come.
This episode, we’re diving into the Netflix series Forever. Inspired by the iconic Judy Blume novel of the same name, this remix tells the emotional love story of two Black teenagers growing up in Los Angeles. It was created by Mara Brock Akil, the TV genius behind series like Girlfriends, The Game, and Being Mary Jane.
Full disclosure, I am a huge Girlfriends fan, and in case you’re wondering, I’m a Joan sun, Lynn moon, and Monica rising. While we will get to all that today, we’re gonna focus on her latest series, Forever. Set in 2018, with a very cool soundtrack to match, the series treats the romance of our protagonists with sincerity and tenderness, two words we don’t often associate with teenagers on TV.
The show dwells in that fragile time when suddenly you’re no longer a child and expectations are shifting from every angle: parents, teachers, peers. Later on this episode, we’ve also got our executive producer and executive director of the Center for Media and Social Impact, Caty Borum, who will chat with Dr. Yalda T. Uhls, a research scientist, educator, author, and expert on the science of media and adolescent development. Don’t go anywhere. We’ll be right back.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome back to We Disrupt This Broadcast. I’m your host, Gabe González. Our guest today is a legend behind the groundbreaking show Girlfriends, as well as The Game, Being Mary Jane, and most recently, Forever, a show we’ll be talking plenty about today. She’s also the author of the recently released debut novel, The Revelation of Dionne Daphne. Please welcome Mara Brock Akil. Hi, how are you?
MARA BROCK AKIL: Oh my goodness. I’m wonderful. Thank you for that. Thank you for having me. I’m really happy to be here.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: As we mentioned, you’re a TV legend, and one of your most enduring groundbreaking shows is Girlfriends, which is such an iconic sitcom for me and so many other folks. It has recently enjoyed a resurgence. I feel like it has enjoyed many resurgences. It comes in waves every few years, particularly among millennials and Gen Z. I binged the entirety of it during the pandemic. I’m curious, how do you feel seeing people revisit that show all these years later?
MARA BROCK AKIL: I believe one of the reasons it still resonates all this time later is that we were literally making that show not only with our whole heart, but almost like it might be our last chance, so we gave it our all.
And I think twenty-five years later, that’s what I think about most. I think about all the people who contributed, how we were just in it, and I’m really proud of that. I think what was fun for me, I was twenty-nine when I was writing that series, and it was fun to write in real time what was happening in the turn of the century for those characters.
What was on the hearts and minds of certainly Mara, but really trying to reflect a time that we were in. At the time, I was a huge fan of Sex and the City, and quite envious of the resources that that HBO show had. And it was supposed to be… I wanted a single camera comedy, and we couldn’t have it. So I did what a lot of Black people have done, and our contribution really to American culture, is we take what we are given and make magic.
You know, make a dollar out of fifteen cents is a part of our cultural not only survival story, but thriving story, and it’s where our humanity is, and it’s what we’ve had to endure. We endured, and that show represents a fight and a place for our humanity. I wanted to talk about the dreams of Black women.
I wanted to talk about the vulnerabilities of Black women. I wanted to talk about the messiness. I wanna talk about what’s beautiful and what’s fashionable, what we desired. For Black women to have desires. I remember on television back then, Black women’s sexuality wasn’t a thing really in terms of we were the sidekick to the woman who had all the things, or we were the asexual judge, or if you were the cop, we never got to go home with her.
So, like, where were we sometimes? And I– and certainly I’m not saying we weren’t- Having some inroads, but I really wanted to plunge in that pool, and I was really proud of the space we created for more of a fullness of who we are. You know, it’s funny ’cause back then, “strong Black woman” was the mantra, and I’m like, “Oh, but we’re also really scared.
We’re also really soft, and we’re also really, don’t know what the heck we are doing. And I wanted to write about that, and I wanted to write about us being stupid over boys but smart at work, going back to the Sex and the City reference. We also weren’t even extras on that show. We weren’t even extras on Friends.
We- There- Nobody made a place for us, and it can make you mad, but my mother, my grandmother, and my aunt always told me, and by their example, is how you take that anger and you redirect it into making something. And then really what Girlfriends is a thesis on, can you have it all, and what would be the cost of it?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: You were one of the youngest women showrunners in TV history with Girlfriends, which debuted when you were 30. At the time, I believe you were the youngest Black woman to work as a showrunner, and I’m curious, how has this distinction affected your career and the work since? Is there anything from that era, anything you learned that you have held onto and bring with you to every single project?
MARA BROCK AKIL: Wonderful question. I belong to a family tree of legends, and at the root of our tree is Garry Marshall. Michael Moye is on that family tree. Stan Lathan’s on that family tree. Norman Lear is on our family tree. But really, the branch that I am on is Ralph Farquhar. But all of that history, all of that DNA is also in me.
And I come into it with my own set of values and talent and perspective, but I’m building on the idea that I believe this TV show is great because the literal craftsmanship that has come in it, and the bar of excellence that is required in order for it to be good. That is what I know for sure, is that the craftsmanship involves so many dynamics to convey what the vision is and hold us to that bar, and also inspire and make room for other people’s greatness and craftsmanship, my ability to spot talent, develop talent.
I can be on this podcast and step away from set because there is a great group of writers supporting the director, and producers on set taking care of the baby. I think one thing that I would like to promote wherever I can at this point, I know our industry is changing. I know we’ve been chasing so many different economic structures and all of that.
But what I know to be true is that we need time to craft. We need time to figure out what it is so that it can have a life of 172 episodes, or it can have a life of three to four, five seasons, whatever the streamers are wanting at this time. It can have a life for what the fans want. I mean, we can’t get these projects out fast enough for them anymore, you know, once they really, really like something.
And so what does that mean? I mean, that’s why I even strongly advocate, and I know the guilds have been doing that, too, writers need to be on set. I even have a foundation, the Writers Colony Foundation. How are we letting just people around it, around the project to teach them, to show them it’s an apprenticeship model?
It’s, craftsmanship is also an apprenticeship-based development and career. And so we’ve got to have the people. So if we’re keeping making the economic choices that keep people away from the craft, that’s gonna show up on the bottom line. And I think developing pathways so that people can understand what we’re making and how you have to make the decisions in real time.
I mean, and also, how do you write a scene that can get across your point of view in a way that you can actually produce that? And so how are we teaching that? How are we showing that? So that’s craftsmanship, and then the pilot allows for the real beautiful collaboration to get it right, for everybody to understand what we’re making, to talk about it so that we can move forward in that first season to really land it.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I am so curious about Forever too, because it is an adaptation of a book.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Mm-hmm.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: We actually interviewed the legendary Judy Blume, another legend on this podcast-
MARA BROCK AKIL: Isn’t she amazing?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: … A little while ago. She’s absolutely incredible. And we talked to her about how it is so important to give teens, especially young women and girls, a space to have their feelings and have their experiences validated. And with the show Forever, you’re very much a part of that legacy. I’m curious, what did it mean to you to adapt Judy Blume’s book with modern Black kids at the center of it?
MARA BROCK AKIL: It meant everything. Imagine, I think I was 12 when I first read Forever specifically. I was reading Judy Blume. I started with Are You There God? It’s Me, Margaret. And then I went, I read Blubber, and I was very… But Forever, you know, she wrote a book. She was honest with us. That’s what it felt like. This is 1982 I’m talking about. And the world wasn’t being honest with kids about certainly not only their feelings, but their feelings attached to this growing sensation and urge for sex.
And though when I read the book, I knew I wasn’t ready for sex, but it was in my near future, and I was curious about what that would be like, and Forever gave us an honest peek into what we might be negotiating and navigating and figuring out. And of course, we passed that book around. Pages were falling out, the whole thing. And then to hear that 50 years later…
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Wow
MARA BROCK AKIL: …on the anniversary of the book, the show came out. Now, I didn’t plan that. Yeah. That was God. And the alignment of everything, but to meet Judy Blume was a wig flip. Just like, “Okay.”
GABE GONZÁLEZ: How could it not be? Yeah.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Yeah. I got to meet her and be able to tell her how much she impacted. I always say we become writers as readers first, and so I can trace the thread of her voice in mine. And so just to be able to meet her and sort of appeal to her why I could maybe do a new version of that story for a modern day in a new medium. And also say, you’re right. We still need to make room for young women’s emotions, and I’m not gonna forget that.
But where we have a long way to go is the emotions of young boys and young men. And I would love to sort of enter into conversation by flipping the protagonist and making Catherine, Justin and making Michael, Keisha. And actually, the book, I felt, was more of a 70/30 point of view of Catherine and Michael.
We only knew Michael through Catherine’s point of view. And so by making it a Justin point of view and a Keisha point of view, we also got to experience a more nuanced expression of Black family in America. And I, because of the time change and because of the changes that I made in the book, a lot of the plot, obviously it’s just different. In fact, Judy shared that she wasn’t sure that Forever could translate to the times because, I mean, sexuality is not a secret anymore. You can find out a lot.
And I said, “Well, yeah, but they have another level of challenges around that. And though you’re right, they may know a lot about sex, they are fumbling at connection, and that’s not their fault. And maybe this is a story we can sort of reflect back and let them see themselves, and maybe through Justin and Keisha, consider their heart more, consider how they protect themselves, consider that it might be okay to fall in love, but don’t ever lose love for yourself and your own journey,” which was also in the book.
So the essence of the book, I really felt proud. I wanted to honor the privilege of translating that book by really holding true to translating the essence of that book, which is giving young people their agency, but also reminding them of their own responsibility to themselves, to each other, and to their future.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Justin is our eyes into this story, right? We sort of get his experiences with his parents and his rules for dating before he goes to the party where he meets Keisha. And you’ve mentioned before that you wrote the Justin character as a kind of love letter to your own sons, and that you intentionally made him the Catherine, the vulnerable character.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Mm-hmm.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Why did you feel that urgency to show the softer side of young Black men when adapting this work? And if I may ask, what did your sons think of the show?
MARA BROCK AKIL: Hmm. My sons are very proud of me and proud of the show. I can’t tell you the gift they allow me to take some facts of them and give it to this character, Justin. And I have to remind people they’re not my sons, but what they have been is my muse. And one of the things that was important to me, especially for Black boys, especially at a time, these young men that Justin represents, the young Black boys who wore hoodies just like Trayvon Martin, and whose parents started to realize no matter what zip code we got them to, they still were in danger.
And one of the things that I sort of witnessed, not only in myself, but in other Black families similar to ours, is that in our ability to protect them, we’ve actually sort of squeezed them into this almost, like, privileged prison. You know what I’m saying? Like, where it’s like, “Isn’t your house amazing? You don’t wanna leave it,” right?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Exactly.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Stay in your private school, stay in your… Stay here. I mean, we lived in a home, too, where I had fear of them ’cause the way our trashcans are from the house is very far, and it’s on a street that, wow, if they were just on that street, how would they be perceived as Black boys, Black bodies that look closer to men’s bodies?
And just taking the trash out, the catastrophic fear that I had and witnessed other parents having. I noticed we were just trying to pad them from life, trying to keep them safe, and then they weren’t also getting the same social experiences or opportunities as their peers that we sent them to school with. So there just was a lot of isolation around their life.
So me just ruminating on that about my own sons, it wasn’t just my own sons. In fact, when I went to Martha’s Vineyard the summer after the show came out, I couldn’t walk down the street without people telling me, “That’s us.” And what I know to be true is that especially between Trayvon Martin and George Floyd being murdered, we were screaming in a vacuum how scared we were just for our sons, and daughters, but specifically speaking to sons, sons to return home, let alone get the opportunity to have a girlfriend or somebody crushing on them or driving. You know what I’m saying? I mean, driving.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Hmm.
MARA BROCK AKIL: The episode where he just wanted to check on his girlfriend after her life blew up, you know what I’m saying? And so it’s like, and the fear that she had of just him driving at night, that is real. That is real. And then thank God his father’s there to help him navigate.
That scene hits me so hard, is because a father is teaching him how to stay alive while trying to live. And then he drops Keisha off, and you think, “Okay, great. That was good. He helped her. They bonded.” But the mom was also right. Just the fact that the cops just patrol the areas where Black people live, Black and brown people live, anything could be possible, and the real fear is that.
And it’s interesting, I found out after the show premiered how many Black viewers realize that just watching TV in general, that they prepare themselves for trauma, and the fact that nothing happened. A lot of tears happened, I heard, around that scene about how much we hold our breath. And we meet the family of Justin like that.
He’s just trying to go to a party. And because he didn’t do it a certain way and have a certain thing to make the parents feel comfortable enough for him to go, it’s just a lot of drama. So I was so excited to show how love can wake us all up, and that Justin getting to that party, seeing Keisha, and desiring someone, having a connection with someone, and just desiring to talk to her again woke him up. And to write drama that doesn’t have the murder mystery, that doesn’t have the car chase, that doesn’t have all these things, was just a joy to accomplish, and that was definitely done together.
I’m so proud of everyone involved in the show and our ability to execute that real-life drama, that real truth through fiction, and have empathy for the characters, and believing that if you have empathy for them, you might see their humanity and see them different in the world. And when he wears a hoodie, he’s just wearing a hoodie.
CLIP: Forever
Okay, so Where is this party? Who’s throwing it?
I don’t know. I’m going with Darius .
Justin, that didn’t answer my question.
Justin, just give us the who, what, when, and where. That’s all.
You don’t have it, do you?
Dawn.
No, Justin, we’re not starting the year out like this. No. No information, no party.
Okay, but Mom, I literally, I, I just found out, like, just- What have I told you … found out about it. Justin.
Dawn!
What, Eric? We got cops out here shooting Black boys like it’s open season, and I’m tripping?
Look, look, there are kids at my school who don’t even come home on the weekends.
And they’re what?
They’re white.
They’re white. Exactly.
They’re white because you, well, you put me in all white schools. Okay.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I do love that you mention that element of the show, right, that there is drama, but the drama is in these sort of transformational internal moments. And the thing that you sort of realize as you let Forever bring you into its world is it reminds you that when you’re that age, small things can feel huge. They can feel as impactful as a car chase. You know what I mean?
MARA BROCK AKIL: A lot of the love stories in life and in art is built around miscommunication. And we’re just, as a viewer, we get to be like, “No, say it. Tell her. Don’t. Ah, ugh, ah,” depending on who we want to be together, and that’s fun. The show is written in that drama, too. Do you love me, or do you like me the way I like you and the way that I love you? Come on, we’re still trying to figure that out.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: That, yeah, that’s the biggest question. That’s the biggest question. Absolutely, yeah.
You have just released your debut novel, The Revelation of Dionne Daphne. I’m curious, what was it about this story in particular that drew you to the medium? When you were coming up with this in your head, was The Revelation of Dionne Daphne a television show first, and then you were like, “Wait, it’s a book”? Or were you jumping into a new medium, a new format intentionally?
MARA BROCK AKIL: The story began as wanting to do it as a film many years ago.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Wow. Wow.
MARA BROCK AKIL: And I took notes on it before my children were born, and I remember putting it down once you sort of get into the business. And I got into the business at a time when people used to really say, “Stay in your lane.” You could not be a television writer and desire to be a film writer. You have to pick a side. I was like, “Well, okay.” Just, “Okay, guys. All right. I’ll put this idea down.” That was gonna be a big rock to push up a big hill, mountain.
And so I just put it aside. And then, funny, just like Girlfriends had a resurgence during the pandemic, Chelcee Johns, my editor, found me in an email and said, “Mara, I love your voice. I think it also has a lot to say on the page, and can we talk?” And we talked, and I said, “Hey, there’s a story that I would love to do.”
Essentially, I guess I approached the book almost like the book was, I got to develop the story. You know what I’m saying? When I do character breakdowns, I do full-on Bibles. They’re like dissertations almost about who they are. You have to… All the choices we make and the environments around us make us, right?
And so I do that for my characters. And so the book allowed me that space for the interiority work that I love to do, that we were just talking about with Justin and Keisha, those ability to act, those micro-moments of who we are as humans. I got to do that on the page. So that actually excited me and didn’t overwhelm me to think like, “How the heck am I gonna write a book?” You know, ’cause there’s always that voice in your head, “What are you doing?”
And I think for me, my little secret about the book was that if I didn’t like the book, I was gonna give them their money back. And so it really was an effort for me to really try something new. And I think now this is, who knew a strike was gonna happen? Who knew the industry was gonna change?
I find the joy of writing that book now as the opportunity to still tell a story. ‘Cause what I believe, Gabe, now and forever, and especially as we talk about AI and all of this, stories are the most valuable, if you wanna be crude enough to say asset- … the most valuable asset we have are our stories.
At a time when having come through the information age and we wanna know more about each other, we’re actually far more open than it seems that we are. I think that’s why there’s such a pushback, because there’s actually, we’re excited about each other. We wanna know more about each other. And so in that regard, we know more and connect more through people sharing their stories.
And I found a way while the industry was reorganizing itself to tell a story in the way that can be true to who I am, my voice, expanding my voice, trying a different canvas. And so I was really excited to explore the characters in this book that really still resonate to what we’re still dealing with today because really, the problems of, what, 20 years ago, they might change.
And the exciting part too is there also is progress in certain places. To really sort of see the progress in us as well as see that we are still dealing with some very significant truths. What I love about Dionne is she is brave enough to expose her deepest shame. I’m excited about her being a leader in doing that, to give permission for all of us to think about that, turn around and face the storms that we’re trying to outrun.
Get in the middle of that storm, get wet, and get on the other side of it. ‘Cause if you ever have gone through a storm and get on the other side of it, it’s quite beautiful weather on the other side of it. And one of my favorite things in LA is, after the rains, is how blue the sky is and how fresh the air is.
And I would really love people to read the story of a young woman willing to face the hardest two weeks of her life. The night that she finds out from her ex-boyfriend that she thought she was gonna marry, that he has HIV and AIDS, and she has to go take a test. And in that test, in those two weeks, which was the hardest two weeks of her life, it’s back in the ’90s, that’s how we took tests, and you had to wait, and you had to reflect on your life. And she has a lot of things to clean up, and she faces the storm, and I think it’s quite a ride and very reflective of today.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I mean, absolutely. I’ve gotta say, the wait time has gone down slightly, but it’s still… You still gotta wait a few days, you know what I mean? Every time you get it, you still gotta wait. They still make you wait and think about your life, just not as long, right? But I will say, it was such a great read, and I think so important. I hope folks-
MARA BROCK AKIL: Thank you.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: …go out and read it. Thank you so much for, um, sharing a copy with us.
MARA BROCK AKIL: I hope they read it too. I would love to be in conversation. I’m so curious, the various conversations we can have around that, and I think that is in life, that when we’re brave enough to tell our story, we can have deeper connection and more things to sort out and hopefully progress.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Mara Brock Akil, you have been a wonderful guest today. We’ve gotten to talk about Girlfriends. We’ve gotten to talk about Forever. There are multiple TV shows that we didn’t even have time to touch. We could do a whole season with you, but unfortunately, we are coming at the end of our time together. So I’m curious, before I let you go, is there anything you haven’t gotten to say that you’d like to leave our audience with?
MARA BROCK AKIL: Wow. Yes. I would. Write your story, even if it’s for an audience of one in your journal. Write your story in a way that you can tell us about who you are as a human. All of the emotions, the feelings, and everything in between, those are the gifts. But the real things, all the things really are all of those feelings that we’ve earned through this experience of being a human. And if we don’t get them out, they’re gonna die with us. And I think there’s a lot we can learn from each other. And I think more importantly, how much a story can heal you. If we spend more time doing that, more gardens will grow.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I like that. That one hit me right in the gut. We gotta get them out or they will die with us. I was like … ah. Yeah. No, truly, what a great thought to end with, that sort of call to action, if you will. Thank you.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Write your story.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Absolutely.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Thank you.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Well, thank you Mara, for joining us. It’s truly been such a privilege and such a pleasure getting to talk to you. And we hope our listeners have checked out Forever.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Yes. Me too. Thank you so much, Gabe. I really appreciate you.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Thank you again to Mara Brock Akil for talking to us about Forever. It’s honestly so striking that this series is based on a book written decades ago and still feels as timely as ever. It’s a testament to both Judy Blume and Mara Brock Akil’s work, both of whom are individuals that make space to validate the emotional worlds of adolescents, even in completely different eras. They make these stories feel universal.
I especially love how Mara brought in her own experiences to give the story new depth and layers for a contemporary audience. As young Black people growing up in LA, the fears of our protagonist’s parents concerning their safety are all too real. But Justin and Keisha’s experiences also show us that living in LA as a young Black person isn’t a monolithic experience. Where they go to school, the neighborhood they live in, and their aspirations are all elements that influence our protagonists’ journeys.
Don’t go anywhere. After the break, we’ll be talking to Dr. Yalda T. Uhls, founder and CEO of the Center for Scholars and Storytellers at UCLA, to talk about why it’s important for teenagers to see stories that respect and celebrate their agency and emotions.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome back. We’re here with Dr. Yalda T. Uhls, founder and CEO of the Center for Scholars and Storytellers at UCLA. She’s in conversation with Caty Borum.
CATY BORUM: I’m joined today by Dr. Yalda Uhls, who is at UCLA. She is a developmental psychologist, but also a Hollywood veteran, who also runs the Center for Scholars and Storytellers. So Dr. Uhls, thank you so much for joining us today.
YALDA T. UHLS: Thank you so much, Caty. And since I’m calling you Caty, please call me Yalda.
CATY BORUM: Okay. Let’s first start with the really, the broad scene setter here, which is, what do young people take away from portrayals either of people like themselves or the dearth and absence of themselves on media? Why is it important for young people and teenagers to actually see themselves and their communities portrayed in ways that are positive, real, authentic, and maybe even aspirational?
YALDA T. UHLS: I love that question. Well, all of us wanna see ourselves in stories, books, movies and TV shows, video games, any kind of media, anything that tells a story.
But during adolescence, which science now say spans the ages of 10 to 25, so it’s a very long period of time, but during this time, we are changing so much. It’s just as important as the time, early childhood in terms of brain development, but our bodies are changing quite a bit as well, and are cognitively, the way we think socially and emotionally, we’re developing our identities.
And media at this time becomes incredibly important because young people start choosing their own media, and friendships become important, and often the two go hand-in-hand. And in a world today where we basically are spending 24/7 with these screens, storytelling and media becomes a developmental context.
It becomes a place where young people are actually learning and growing, a third space, a third place. So it’s more important than ever that young people see themselves reflected accurately, without stigma, and all sorts of different kinds of young people see themselves.
CATY BORUM: So based on everything that you’re saying, why is it so important to acknowledge and really validate the feelings of teens, even if we understand that they’re in a temporary phase of their lives?
YALDA T. UHLS: Because they’re humans. I mean, everybody deserves being validated and understood. And in fact, in the show Forever, the mom is guilty of treating her son sometimes as though he is still her little baby boy. And instead, you have to really value that these teens are becoming adults and they’re learning, and they need to be treated as such and respected and reflected as humans that are learning about the world, but that are very open and not so different than us.
And can sometimes frankly offer much more interesting perspectives and fresh ideas. Their brains, there’s a term called cognitive flexibility, which means that your brain is able to sort of shift ideas and think differently. But for young people and adolescents, they have a lot of cognitive flexibility, which is why, like, education and learning and this time period is so open for new ideas, and media and storytelling, which can show them other worlds and other kinds of people, is incredibly important.
CATY BORUM: So just wondering if you can reflect on the importance of this particular series being set within two Black families and a Black community, and Black teenagers navigating love, and why that may or may not be a groundbreaker in, I’m leaving the may or may not ’cause I wanna allow real space for your real thoughts here, Yalda, but a path breaker in terms of portrayals of Black teenagers and Black families in American television today in the streaming age.
YALDA T. UHLS: I mean, there’s so much about this show that’s kind of groundbreaking. One, that it took this beloved novel that I read as a teeny girl, folded over pages, that was, you know, and I am a woman of color. I’m a daughter of Persian immigrants and, you know, related to the story, which was presumably about two white teenagers, so much, and then took that story and, you know, adapted it and evolved it into this story and did it in such an original way with these characters, is groundbreaking.
I also really love the fact that you have this family of color and this woman who’s incredibly successful, and the female, she’s the breadwinner. She’s the one that’s, you know, in charge, and then her husband is just in love with her and okay with it, and strong enough and caring enough to be okay with a woman like that. The kid says, “Mom’s a lot,” and he’s like, “She’s a lot, and not every man can put up with that.” As a woman who’s probably a lot, I really love that there was that kind of character.
And then also the boy, he’s a Black male boy, and he’s not a stereotype. He’s got so many different kinds of interests. He plays basketball. He’s really good-looking, but he also is kind of a geek, and he’s smart, and he does these kind of really cool things. I love that he was, like, mixing music together, and the mom didn’t quite understand, like, what the modern teenager is doing.
I really felt like it just, there’s so many different kinds of characters in this piece that just feel fresh and exciting and counter-stereotypical, and I think that’s why it’s resonating with audiences.
CATY BORUM: Why is that depiction of love and being able to depend on your parent, talk to your parent, why is that so important to a show for teenagers?
YALDA T. UHLS: Well, first of all, it role models it for parents that you can be that way, and for teens. So us parents watching things, we also learn things as well. But also because by and large, a lot of family relationships are like that, and African American family relationships are like that, very close bonds. Family is very important in that culture.
And so I think seeing that is something that young people crave. We released some research in February where we were looking about portrayals. We do a lot of work in portrayals of masculinity and hoping to inspire Hollywood to involve those portrayals to make men more vulnerable and caring and loving and many of the things that they actually are in real life. But media doesn’t portray them that way. And we found that young people were craving to see more portrayals of joyful fatherhood.
You know if you’ve watched TV for the last 20 years- Bumbling fathers- Yes … missing fathers, fathers that are clueless, angry fathers. And we have a teen group actually at the Center for Scholars and Storytellers called the Youth Media Representation Group, and they are a group of young people. They actually read scripts for different people, studios-
CATY BORUM: Wow.
YALDA T. UHLS: … and they also come and speak to creators. And the reason is because I know that when creators make content, they often rely on their own memory of teenagehood or their own children, and their own children are incredibly privileged usually living in this, like, small bubble in Los Angeles. And maybe some of them really are pushing away their parents and angry, or there’s some dysfunctional stuff, and the people writing these shows are reflecting what they’re seeing in their environment, but not really reflecting what all teens think about and want.
So we have brought together this diverse groups of teens to sort of give perspectives beyond just this little Los Angeles group. What we have found when we talk to them is many of them have amazing relationships with their parents. They wanna see more great relationships with their parents.
We just did an event at Sony, and we had our teens on a stage, and one of them’s like, “You guys, why are you always showing teens, like, rebelling and pushing away their parents and, like, sneaking out the window in the middle of the night? My mother tracks me on my cell phone. There is no way I’m gonna be able to sneak out of the window in the middle of the night.” And everybody was like, “Oh, yeah.” And I had a Disney exec afterwards say to me, “Yeah, I never really thought about, like, they really wanna see more closer parent relationships.” And-
CATY BORUM: Yeah
YALDA T. UHLS: maybe that Forever, that’s another reason it’s doing well, is because it’s tapping into that.
CATY BORUM: The dominant theme, of course, of Forever, both the book and the show, is the idea of first love. And so this particular show shows first love and coming of age in such a beautiful and modern way. So what are some other stories that you would wanna see tackled for teens?
YALDA T. UHLS: Yeah. I mean, one of the most clear takeaways from our Teens and Screens study, which has gone on for four years in our annual survey of 1,500 teens from across the country, we saw overwhelmingly that they wanted to see more friendships, and we called it No-mance Not Romance. And that study went viral. Jimmy Kimmel made fun of us, and we were in 32 countries, and then we found the same founding the next year, and the same founding last year. And I do think it’s starting to surface more in content. I was just talking to a reporter today who told me that Love Island has a lot of female friendships in it, and I kind of think that’s partially ’cause of our research, ’cause it got so much press, and people are realizing that young people wanna see more positive relationships.
And so we hear over and over, and boys wanna see more relationships, friendships. Boys and girl friendships on-screen. Girls wanna see more friendships. Boys wanna see more friendships with boys. I think part of it may be we do feel a little isolated and lonely, and this generation went through COVID, and it was harder to socialize in person, and they really are trying to figure out how to have good relationships, and they wanna learn from it and see it on screen.
They tell us they don’t wanna see the toxicity, and they wanna see, like, conflict ’cause a relationship, a friendship is not easy. It’s not perfect. Sometimes the friendships are like, “Oh, of course, the girls are perfect to each other.” But no, there’s conflict and anger and jealousy, but then resolution and how do you have a good friendship?
I think seeing more of that would be great. And with this reporter, he was like, “Do you think, like, that’s a good thing on Love Island that it’s more girl friendships?” And I like, “Yeah,” ’cause normally, reality shows are all about two girls fighting each other over a guy.
CATY BORUM: Ugh.
YALDA T. UHLS: And now, it’s girls talking to girls. Like, that’s the Bechdel test, right? It is like, you know what? Yes. Two girls in a scene, and they’re not talking about a guy.
CATY BORUM: Oh my God, you’re so right. Okay. Well, I am gonna have to definitely assign this study to my students this semester. I love that. With your years of expertise studying young people and media- What gives you hope for this generation of young people who are more digital than ever vis-a-vis the media landscape?
YALDA T. UHLS: So much gives me hope. I mean, every time we talk to our teen group, I just feel so good. They read a script. A company came to us with a remake of a major movie, and we had our teens read the script, and they caught that the teens were being portrayed in a stereotypical manner, and there was no aspirational element.
There was no joy, and it was showing them as though they were tech-obsessed. And they gave really incredible notes, and the executives read it and were like, “Oh my God, they’re right.” And we hope they’ve integrated into the script. And so we, as adults, are looking so top-down at these teens and judging them, and there’s so many adults and people who write books about this generation and their brains being gone because of all the tech, and we ban social media all over, you know, instead of really trusting them, talking to them, supporting their autonomy and growth, and helping them be part of the solution.
I believe that teens, young people, they’ve driven every revolution. They’ve driven most social change. They are at this point in their lives where they have the idealism and the lack of knowledge of how hard it is to actually go for it. And so if we just trust them, and we support them, and we help them learn, and we use this incredible tool that they’re living in, storytelling, as a way to positively impact them, I think we’ll go a lot further as a culture.
I so believe in the power of storytelling. I think good storytellers just innately know how to, like, bring out the best in humans and tell a story that brings out the best. And the more that we work together, you know, researchers, young people, and storytellers, to use this tool as a force to positively impact the world, the better we will be as a society.
CATY BORUM: Love that. Well, Dr. Yalda Uhls, we are so pleased to have had you with us, so thank you again for joining us. Thank you so much.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: You heard it here first, folks. The Peabody Awards are finally talking about the genre-defining cult classic series Love Island. But seriously, I do love and appreciate an unexpected and insightful discovery. They’re everywhere, even on reality TV. Thank you again to our guests, Mara Brock Akil, creator of Forever, and Dr. Yalda T. Uhls from the Center for Scholars and Storytellers.
Dr. Uhls is doing the very important work of creating intentionality in how we create and curate programming for teenagers and young adults. Caty very rightly pointed out that when teenagers are depicted in media, overwhelmingly their personalities are foils to what an adult is supposed to be.
On TV, teenagers are irrational, dramatic, childish, and their point of view is skewed by the state of transition they’re going through. But Mara and Dr. Uhls ask us to take a step back from making those assumptions. To remember that we were once teenagers, and surprise, surprise, teenagers are still full human beings with their own emotions and dreams to navigate. They might not have the tools to deal with those things in an adult way, but they’re working on it.
So I myself am gonna try to remember that when teens feel listened to, understood, and have the space to be themselves, they might be able to teach adults something about how to move through the world with a little more patience.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Because the Peabodys are decided unanimously, every episode we’ll bring you the quote that we chose unanimously as our most disruptive moment.
MARA BROCK AKIL: Back then, “strong Black woman” was the mantra. And I’m like, “Oh, but we’re also really scared. We’re also really soft, and we’re also really, don’t know what the heck we are doing.”
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Next time on We Disrupt This Broadcast, we’re going to the cottage! Join us as we talk to Heated Rivalry creator Jacob Tierney about the gay hockey show that set the TV world ablaze.
JACOB TIERNEY: I think a lesson to learn, I don’t even know if it’s specifically to queer storytelling, because I think it has a lot to do with a lot of marginalized people in terms of storytelling, is let people tell stories they want to tell. Like stop trying to make original ideas into generic ideas and give people the chance to do something different.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: We Disrupt This Broadcast is a Peabody and Center for Media and Social Impact production hosted by me, Gabe González, with on air contributions from Caty Borum and Jeffrey Jones. The show is brought to you by executive producers, Caty Borum and Jeffrey Jones. Managing producer Jordana Jason. Writers: Sasha Stewart, Jordana Jason, Bethany Hall, Jennifer Keishin Armstrong, and myself, Gabe González. Consulting producers Jennifer Keishin Armstrong and Bethany Hall. Researcher, Riley McLaughlin. Graphic designer: Olivia Klaus. Operations producer: Varsha Ramani. The marketing and communications team: Christine Drayer and Tunishia Singleton. From PRX: the team is Terrence Bernardo, Jennie Cataldo, Edwin Ochoa and Amber Walker. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.