JACOB TIERNEY: I think what I’m so proud of about this show is that it has contributed to the expanding of the queer imagination into allowing for a happy ending, and I think if that’s all we ever did, fucking great. I’m thrilled.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome to another episode of We Disrupt This Broadcast. Get ready, because we are diving into one of the hottest shows about one of the coldest sports. Pack a bag for the cottage, because today’s episode is all about Heated Rivalry.
I’m your host, Gabe González, and today I have the very gay luxury of talking to the show’s writer, creator, and director, Jacob Tierney, who adapted Heated Rivalry from the book series Game Changers by Rachel Reid.
And look, we were all there for the hype. Even if you hadn’t seen this show when it first came out, you absolutely heard about it. For all the talk about how queer television only caters to a niche audience, Heated Rivalry broke that antiquated stereotype. I heard straight coworkers, friends’ parents, even strangers on the subway talking about it.
And as our guest today will tell you, the TV adaptation wasn’t trying to reinvent or rewrite its source material. Instead, it leaned into what made the book so popular while broadening the world of its story. And make no mistake, Heated Rivalry embraces the romance genre, so that world is steamy and full of sexual tension.
But the show also explores how homophobia still permeates so much of our world, whether it’s a hockey league or a national government. It’s the threat of losing everything in the face of discrimination that keeps our series leads, Shane Hollander, played by Hudson Williams, and Ilya Rozanov, played by Connor Storrie, from being able to live the lives they know they want.
This balancing act between grounded stakes and heightened romance is tricky, but one that the series cast and crew nail by bringing an authentic and unfiltered perspective to a queer story full of longing, lust, and eventually love. Don’t go anywhere. I’ll be hitting the ice with Jacob Tierney after the break.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome back. I’m your host, Gabriel González, and we are here with Jacob Tierney, an acclaimed Canadian writer, director, producer, and actor known for creating bold, character-driven stories. His work includes the hit series Letterkenny, as well as Shoresy, and most recently, the acclaimed sports romance drama Heated Rivalry.If you haven’t watched yet, what are you doing? Please join me in welcoming Jacob Tierney to the podcast. Hi, how are you?
JACOB TIERNEY: Hi. I’m good, thanks. How are you?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Great. Really appreciate you joining us. We’re recording this on Pride Month, no less. The timing could not have been more perfect. I’m really thrilled.
JACOB TIERNEY: I mean, how else do you want to spend June? What are we talking about here?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Rewatching this show. My friends were on Fire Island, and I was locked up in my apartment happily revisiting Shane and Ilya’s story. I was like, “I’ve got work to do. Thank you.” The series is such a phenomenon that it feels like we’re maybe just starting to glimpse the effect it could have on the TV industry, in Canada and the US and internationally. So I guess I wanna start off with kind of a big picture question. What do you hope the industry takes from its success?
JACOB TIERNEY: That’s a great question. It’s tough to answer, too. You know, because I’ve been doing this a long time, and I kind of feel like they’re gonna take the wrong things from it. What I hope genuinely that they take from it is that when a fan base is passionate about material, don’t think you’re smarter than the material.
Don’t change it. Don’t try to fix it. There’s a notion that I think people think they have to fix things because TV goes a certain way and books go a certain way. Never the twain shall meet, kind of thing. And I think that, you know, one of the things that I really stuck to when I was adapting this show was the book.
There was nothing to fix. It’s a good book. Do the book. And I think that there’s a lot of mistakes made in thinking that things need to move a certain way or fit a certain pattern that TV–you can’t hear this, but I’m using air quotes– kind of more generically does. And I think that in general, trusting fan bases and trusting readership, particularly when it’s readers of books, I mean, they know what they like and they know what they want. I would love to see that be the lesson learned.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this book came with such a vigilant and passionate fan base.
JACOB TIERNEY: And evangelical, right?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
JACOB TIERNEY: That’s why the show was a hit. They told, they went door to door with the good news, “Have you heard about Heated Rivalry?” That’s what you get when you treat them well, right? They’re excited about it, instead of going onto BookTok or wherever they kind of congregate and being like, “Ugh, didn’t work. Why did they do this? Why’d they do that?”
GABE GONZÁLEZ: This was a very word-of-mouth series. I had never encountered the books before, and folks were suddenly talking to me about a series on Crave, and I was like, “Okay, what year is it? What’s going on?”
And it was so exciting. It’s just, and you know, especially in a year where it felt like there was such a dearth of queer representation in the US. US productions I think saw a drop in a lot of queer representations across most scripted. So it’s like it was really just such a balm in a needed time, which was great.
JACOB TIERNEY: Yeah. I’m not a science guy. I don’t know if we’ll ever find the scientific reason for why this show kind of exploded the way that it did. So that’s very exciting, and we could see the momentum building for the show, but I think it was what happens in five and six that kind of solidified it as a thing beyond the expectations in the sense that I don’t think anybody expected it to have a happy ending.
And I think that’s kind of a subconscious queer thing of, like, we just don’t expect it. I mean, I had people tell me that they were waiting for them to, like, hit somebody with their car during the credits of episode six. I was like, “There are credits rolling, sir. Like, why would you think a plot twist like that would happen?” In my head, I was like, “I should have had them pulled over for speeding.” “I should have done something like that.” ‘Cause I’m a cheap comedy writer, and I cannot resist a joke like that.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I mean, I’ve gotta say, my mind immediately went into the gutter. I was waiting for Ilya’s’ head to dip right below the frame of camera. Given their track record, I was like, “There’s only one way this car ride ends.”
JACOB TIERNEY: That’s not unreasonable. And then they get pulled over for that.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Exact- there you go. Yeah. And then the cop is really hot and not problematic. Look at that. But no, I was thinking about this kind of representation specifically coming from Canada, and it’s something Dan Levy talked about, I think, earlier this year, right?
That there are so many innovative shows that are inclusive of queer people, like Schitt’s Creek, like Heated Rivalry, that only became hits in the US after someone in Canada saw value in them first, and that the lesson here is maybe not to make more shows just like that, but to view queer creators as valuable instead of anomalies in the industry. So I’m wondering, did that resonate with you at all?
JACOB TIERNEY: I think that queer creators don’t often think we’re allowed to tell our own stories. I think there’s a lot of self-policing there, and I think that there’s a lot of policing among queer executives, among their… Like, there are so many. And it’s often queer executives who’ll be like, “Eh, it’s a bit gay. It’s a bit too much. It’s a bit on the nose.”
But I think that’s a lesson we’ve taught ourselves, that, like, we’ve learned that in, like, how to fit in, how to make work, you know? Like, ultimately, people in this business are just trying to keep working. This business is a nightmare, right? There are very successful people, and then there are kind of a working class of people.
The middle class, of especially writers, has been decimated by streaming, by strikes, by a whole bunch of things, a terrible confluence of events. I think a lesson to learn for queer stor- I don’t even know if it’s specifically to queer storytelling, ’cause I think it has a lot to do with a lot of marginalized people in terms of storytelling, is let people tell stories they want to tell.
Like, stop trying to make original ideas into generic ideas and give people the chance to do something different. Because the shows that I kind of ended up comparing us to, not tonally, but in terms of just like, it was really weird to have a show that you were like, “I think everyone’s talking about this show right now.”
And like, I feel like that happened to Baby Reindeer, it happened to Squid Game. So we’re not, it’s not to actually specifically queer, although Baby Reindeer is definitely a queer show. I think it’s about like hearing a voice that’s like, “No one’s told me this story before, or in this way. I’ve not seen this.”
And I think that requires courage up and down the payroll. You know? It’s like, okay, will it work? You don’t know, right? You don’t know. I don’t think anyone that read a show like Baby Reindeer would’ve been like, “This is gonna be the most massive hit Netflix has ever had.” Like, it’s wonderful and I absolutely adore it, and it is traumatic, and it is difficult, and it is fascinating.
But I don’t think you feel… And I would say the same with Squid Game, where like that’s closer to an action movie, but at the same time you’re like, “I don’t know if on paper this torture chamber for Korean adults is gonna be the thing.” But it was, you know? And we were all watching it. And I think that we kind of live in a bit of that world of just like people not knowing what to expect episode to episode.
They don’t know what the show’s gonna do. And I think that it’d be fun to see more TV like that in general, whether it’s queer or whether it’s Black or whether it’s, you know, any kind of other creators that don’t often get to tell the stories the way that they want them told.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I mean, it’s always the big swings, right, that make the impact, and then suddenly the big swing is, oh, I want the next Heated Rivalry, right?
JACOB TIERNEY: You’re never gonna get it. You have to back the next original voice you hear. You know? It’s never gonna be another gay hockey. I mean, god bless. Go try. But yeah, it’s like the… I think that’s a mistake people make, too, is like let’s try to replicate. It’s like you can’t replicate it. You find someone who’s passionate about material, and the material’s different and unique, and you trust them.
It’s just trying to let different voices express themselves differently is not the end of the world, and trying to make everything feel like the same thing you’ve already seen before is not a path to success, necessarily.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Yeah. I do wanna ask about some of that past work that you had done. You worked on Letterkenny and Shoresy, and so I’m curious, I mean, obviously you had worked in the industry before, but you did kind of a shift, right?
We’re changing genres into romance. We’re in the hour-long space now. What was it like making that switch? Was there anything about that felt a little daunting at first?
JACOB TIERNEY: I mean, not really. Speaking of the confidence of a white man. No. No. I love writing comedy, and I love making comedy, and I will continue to do it, and I think that Heated Rivalry is frankly very funny.
But I just, I feel like it’s more about being authentic to the story you wanna tell. Like, it also kind of feels like when you’re in Canada, you’re kind of like a bit working on a stage that’s not the main stage. So it’s like, I don’t know. Try it. What’s the worst that can happen? Like, at least I got another show made, you know?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: And I’ve gotta say, see the comedic bones, right? I think when Ilya calls right after that on-screen kiss and delivers in the most deadpan Russian accent, “I’m coming to the cottage,” I laughed. There are comedic beats there that I think punctuate the romance genre, and I think audiences like that, right? I think horror embrace more comedy.
JACOB TIERNEY: Oh, it feels realer. People make jokes. People make jokes. To me, it’s very weird when things have the tone of endless seriousness. I kind of zone out. I’m like, “I don’t know.” I don’t spend 15 minutes talking to somebody and we don’t laugh. Like, that’s insane. Yeah. It sounds miserable. Even at a funeral, like, you’re gonna make a joke.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: But I think sex scenes too, like, when we see intimacy on screen, it’s usually so serious and played to be, like, hot and seamless and beautiful, and I think embracing the humor in sex. I mean, I feel like most people laugh a couple times during sex. It’s a little awkward.
JACOB TIERNEY: They definitely talk. And if they don’t, then that’s a very particular vibe. I think the thing that, at least in TV, I mean, I think it’s two things. One, we’re kind of afraid of sex. It’s a lot of pan away. Yeah. As if sex isn’t a crucial part of being a person. And especially if you’re talking about a relationship. If you’re watching a married couple, for example, or two strangers, like, it’s like you’re learning things about these people by the way that they communicate physically. Sex is a huge part of being a person, of being alive.
And then I think the other thing that, like, happened to sex on TV is that it became violence. It turned into the amount of shows that use rape as a plot tool I think made people be like, “I don’t wanna watch this anymore.” And I think there was kind of a mistaken thing of, like, young people don’t wanna watch sex on TV. And I remember thinking one day, I was like, “They’ve never seen sex on TV. They’ve just seen rape.” Like, then of course they would be like, “I don’t wanna watch this.” Who the fuck does?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Yeah. We had a very similar conversation with Ron Nyswaner regarding Fellow Travelers, which also had some very memorable sex scenes, but much like that, I think Heated Rivalry takes advantage of these moments to tell you about the characters, right? It’s not played up to be salacious.
JACOB TIERNEY: That’s the rule in the show, is like, if we’re not learning about them, then we’re not… then the sex doesn’t belong; which is partly why the sex with Scott and Kip is so different, because they’re in love and they’re happy, and so they’re fucking. And so, like, we’re showing that, but we’re not lingering.
We’re definitely not pacing it out the way we do those scenes with Shane and Ilya, because with Shane and Ilya, you’re watching two people going from teenagers into adulthood over the course of almost a decade, and basically all they do is meet up and fuck. They barely talk, at least in the beginning of their relationship. So that’s how they know each other. So if they’re not getting to know each other during this, then what is it really doing here?
That’s what I liked about the book. That’s what was interesting to me about the book, because I didn’t realize how spicy romance novels were. I was like, “Wow, these things are… they be smutty.” And I didn’t really realize that, but I think what brought me back to that book over and over again was exactly that. I know these people better after these sex scenes. I didn’t just read about body parts doing things, you know? Hot as that may be, I’m learning about people, and that’s more interesting.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: The people are starved for a sex scene that moves the plot forward and tells us about the characters. They are absolutely parched. Look, if you’ve enjoyed this conversation, you are in luck because Jacob isn’t going anywhere. When we come back, we’ll keep it going with the creator of Heated Rivalry.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome back. We are here with Jacob Tierney talking about Heated Rivalry. Now, Jacob, I think it’s fair to say one of the biggest things about the show has been the fan reaction to it. People are obsessed. Many of them are out here yearning for Ilya’s bear tattoos, which did not make the cut. Have you ever experienced anything like this with a project?
JACOB TIERNEY: I’ve never experienced anything like this before, no.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: That is wild. I’m wondering if you think maybe this has to do with the content. Like, is this story, is Heated Rivalry the kind of content that draws a rabid fan base and scrutiny from the media, or do you think it was just a, I don’t know, maybe a right place, right time, right talent kind of thing?
JACOB TIERNEY: I don’t know the answer to that. But I can tell you a thing that I have noticed is that a lot of the most vicious negativity online is ginned up by bots. I do not pretend to know everything about this topic or even a lot about this topic, but I will say that it’s pretty clear to me that the people who benefit from a show like this having a toxic fandom are people who do not want, not to sound over simplistic here, but who do not want queer joy to be a thing.
They do not want people to be culturally responding to, to the wholesomeness, honestly, of watching two men be in love. And the cultural disruption of that is to kind of attack people from the left and from the right and to just kind of clobber everybody with divisiveness and hate. I do think it’s really interesting where our show fits into that paradigm of, like, trying to be a cultural disruptor in what are perceived as liberal Western values, I think.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I re-watched this series right before the interview, just to keep it fresh. No ulterior motives here, obviously. And I noticed the first episode, even before Shane and Ilya hook up, is at least visually very, very horny in a very gay way. I’m thinking specifically about the scene where we see them working out, and the camera just lingers on these beads of sweat and parts of Ilya’s neck. It’s like we are in Shane’s perspective in that moment. It is positively lustful, and it felt so familiar. But besides the Game Changer series, what were some of your erotic or romance inspirations kind of trying to channel the vibe for this?
JACOB TIERNEY: I mean, I had, like, impressionist … Like, we talked a lot about In the Mood for Love, the look of In the Mood for Love, the sensuality of In the Mood for Love, which ironically is shot like a noir, and I shot this like a noir. I think noir is the most aesthetically pleasing form of film. I think everything should look like that. I love shadows. I don’t need detail. We never … I was like, “I never want this show to look rough.” The show should be, anytime we can be gorgeous, be gorgeous. It’s a romance, and it’s a fantasy.
But yeah, I’m not one of those directors or writers who, like, will read a lot in the genre of what I’m working on. If anything, I avoid it, ’cause I don’t wanna steal other people’s ideas, and I don’t wanna use other people’s stuff. So I just think about the material that I’m doing, and I’ll watch, like, a cooking show. You know, like, I’ll go the complete opposite way. Although those are getting increasingly smutty, cooking shows.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I’ve seen Padma’s new show. She knows what she’s doing. So hockey seems to be a running theme in your career, but I’m curious if after Heated Rivalry specifically, you heard from any athletes that talked to you about the impact the show might have had on them?
JACOB TIERNEY: I did, and I heard from people who work in professional sports as well, not necessarily just the athletes. I was very happy and moved and grateful that people responded to the story, that they were inspired by it in a variety of ways, but it was also a very stark reminder of how real the closet is for these folks. For people who work in professional men’s sports especially, I would say.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Oh, yeah.
JACOB TIERNEY: There’s nothing easy. When, you know, people talk about the fact that there’s never been an out professional NHL player, and there’s only ever been one openly gay person ever drafted, Luke Prokop, into the National Hockey League, the folks that have reached out to me have made it pretty clear why. It’s not a hospitable environment, still isn’t.
And I would also say that socially and in terms of professional sports, the hyper-masculinizing of it, that’s definitely not a word, but I think you know what I mean, has only gotten worse, it’s not gotten better. And I think that I don’t see an environment where it would be super welcome. I think that’s why you’ll see it happen more and more as people retire and things like that. I want to be more hopeful about hockey than I am.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: And I’m glad you specified men’s sports, too, ’cause I gotta say, I’ve been to one New York Liberty game. They’re our women’s basketball team.
JACOB TIERNEY: It ain’t the same. The ladies have it figured out, baby.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Absolutely.
JACOB TIERNEY: The ladies have it way more figured out.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: The vibe is immaculate.
JACOB TIERNEY: Oh, yeah. The PWHL, too, the Professional Women’s Hockey League. Oh. An amazing, supportive welcoming place. Definitely queer-friendly, definitely friendly to women. And I mean, I think you could see, you know, we don’t have to get into what just happened at the Stanley Cup Finals, but you know, a guy that was acquitted of a rape charge. I mean, the NHL’s not helping itself. They’re not helping themselves.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I wanna talk a little bit more about Shane and Ilya’s characters and kind of their stories, ’cause I think they’re both secretive about their sexuality for different reasons, right? I think Ilya’s circumstances are primarily external and, you know, kind of put him at mortal risk, and Shane’s seem a little more internal, right? There’s a hurdle- Yes … there he can’t quite overcome.
CLIP: Heated Rivalry
It was nice.
It was.
And it felt like we were something.
We can be something, Hollander.
Will you want to be? If we could?
We can’t.
That’s not what I asked.
What does it fucking matter?
I don’t think I can keep pretending I don’t like you anymore.
You don’t like me.
Yeah, I do. I think I like you maybe a little too much.
Don’t. Don’t fucking do this, Hollander. I’m not. I wouldn’t be able to go home again, ever. Do you get that?
Because your family?
Because Russia! I would not be able to go back to Russia.
What would happen to you?
I don’t want to find out.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: And so I’m curious, what does it mean to depict the sex life of someone who is still questioning their sexuality like Shane?
JACOB TIERNEY: I loved the journey. Like, it felt very real to me, it felt very true. He knows something. He’s not ready to go all the way. He’s not ready to give up this idea that he has to be perfect, and to him, being perfect does not involve being gay. I felt that way when I was a teenager. I related to that 100%.
And I think that with Ilya, it’s very different in that he knows exactly who he is. He just can’t say it out loud, and he also can’t imagine a world where he gets to say it out loud because he is acutely aware of what he would be giving up. And he’s right. He’s not wrong. He’s 100% right. And you know, people still…
I mean, like, I’ve been asked this question recently about like, you know, “What do you think about the idea that everyone should come out?” I’m like, “I think that’s a very privileged thing to be able to say.” I would not recommend to everybody to come out. I would say find safety. If coming out puts your life in danger, no, don’t come out. Oh my God. Hide for two more years and then go to university. You know?
That’s… It’s crazy to not remember that in this day and age, there are loads of people all over the world for whom it is not safe to be out. It’s not. And I don’t think we gain a lot by pretending that that’s not the case and by giving kind of blanket platitudes of advice, of being like, “Everyone should.” Sure, everyone should if we lived in a perfect world. We don’t. We absolutely don’t.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: You know, it’s interesting to see Scott’s speech at the, I think, the beginning of the very last episode, right? Where it’s like when he is finally ready to embrace that, he can see the good that comes from it, but he’s gotta be at a place where that’s ready to happen, right?
CLIP: I’m so grateful that I get to do this for a living. But I also know what it feels like to not fit in. When I was a teenager, I realized that I may be that thing that hockey players like to throw around as an insult. The kind of language that I heard on the ice and in the locker room every day was a constant reminder that I was different. When you have a secret that you work as hard as I did to protect, it’s, um, It’s exhausting. It’s a nonstop effort, and it’s also really, really lonely. Thankfully, I found the person who changes everything, and he gave me the confidence and strength and the need to be honest about who I am. Fear is a powerful thing. But then, uh, I found the one thing that is more powerful. So I share this honor with my teammates and my coaches, but I also share it with you, Kip. You have made me better in every conceivable way. I love you. Thank you.
JACOB TIERNEY: And he’s a handsome, white, straight-passing guy. Right? So if it’s that hard for him you can do the rest of the math yourself, yeah.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Absolutely. I wanna talk about the final corner of this very gay square, which is Kip. Short king, loved him from the get. Yeah. He is such a breath of fresh air. But Kip is living his little smoothie life. He is out, you know, he’s got his sweet dad, and his life provides such an interesting contrast to this kind of repressive, hyper-masculine world we see with the other characters. Why did you feel it was important to include that contrast, and how did you think about balancing his story with all the other characters, right? ‘Cause we really get a lot of him in episode three and five. So how did fitting those puzzle pieces together to, like, nail that contrast work out for you?
JACOB TIERNEY: I mean, that was a more of a larger structural question of, what do you do with that book and how do you tell that story? But within it, what I think is very astute in terms of what you’re just asking me, is actually the thing that mattered the most to me with Kip was that he’s poor. That even within this fantasy world that I’ve already, you know, called semi-nonsense about professional athletes and da, da, da, da.
So of course they’re gonna be hot, they’re gonna be ripped, they’re gonna be ba, ba, da, ba. And it’s a romance, so of course Kip should be hot. What are we talking about? And also, when people were like, “A smoothie guy in Brooklyn has that body?” I was like, “Yeah, have you met a 25-year-old gay guy?” Like, what are you talking about?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Of course. I can’t go to the grocery store in shorts and a t-shirt.
JACOB TIERNEY: You’ll be shamed. Absolutely.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Exactly.
JACOB TIERNEY: Um, but that reality aside, I really did want to particularly showcase how the lives that have been normalized on this show in terms of Shane and Ilya and Scott are not normal. These are rich guys, and their worlds come with that kind of privilege, too, of like, that’s how somebody like Shane can be that oblivious for that long, right?
‘Cause he’s completely focused on hockey, wildly successful at it, and then gets to live in a world of his own creation ’cause he’s making a ton of money. And how can Ilya be so free and flamboyant? He’s rich. Like, that’s how you get to live that way, by being rich, and Kip is not. And so his life is very different because of that.
But what’s interesting, he at least gets to be free, right? Like, he gets to be himself. And so the trappings of wealth and power are, for gay men, often a bit of a prison, and I think that’s the case with the world that we’ve created here.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Oh, absolutely. No, I saw a lot in him that reminded me of my own friends, and it’s nice to see someone grounded in the outside world rather than trying to shy away from it. When you see folks kind of come out gradually throughout the show, I feel like Kip is waiting there, waving, you know, a rainbow pride flag and…
JACOB TIERNEY: Yeah, I think it’s part of the necessity of fantasy, too, is to remind you of where the real world is, right? Otherwise, it’s not aspirational. Otherwise, it’s not a fantasy. It’s just kind of like a weird world. But this is like, oh, no, there are normal people here, too.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I’d love to talk about the moment that Shane’s dad shows up at the cottage and the secret is out, so to speak. But it turns out that Shane’s parents are actually quite supportive, and we kind of realize that this barrier to coming out was partially in his head, at least coming out to his family. Can we dive into that?
JACOB TIERNEY: Well, I think as we also know as queer people too, we can build this up in our heads to be, whether it’s too big or not big enough or whatever, it’s still a fiction. You have to do it out loud. You have to try it and see what happens, because you’re not gonna know until, you know… Like, I was surprised when I did it. Like, I, yeah, I think there are surprises that come with it. People that you’re like, “Oh, that was easy,” and people you’re like, “Wow, that wasn’t easy. That’s interesting.”
Part of what makes Shane’s story resonate so much is I think a lot of us try to be perfect, and in our heads, perfection never involves queerness. And so either put it aside and be so amazing at something else that no one can tell you you’re not great, and it’s still not enough, and that’s when you find out. That’s the liberating thing about coming out, if you can, if it’s safe, is that you’re like, “Oh, well, so much of that nonsense goes away,” this idea you have of yourself in your head that you don’t have to hold onto anymore.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Absolutely. It’s refreshing to hear that not a lot has changed, right? Because I think we see so many folks focus on this idea of visibility being good, and it’s good, but it doesn’t ultimately change the material conditions that some people are living under, right? You need a kind of a big overhaul before we can get to that place, like you said, where everyone everywhere feels safe coming out.
JACOB TIERNEY: I think what I’m so proud of about this show is that it has contributed to the expanding of the queer imagination into allowing for a happy ending, and I think if that’s all we ever did, fucking great. I’m thrilled. I never anticipated we’d be doing anything at all in terms of contributing to culture at large, but I think that what I’ve come to see is that especially for generations just above mine, the idea of a happy ending is science fiction.
They never saw it, and the truth is you can’t imagine it until you see it. The existence of it helps in the endlessness of the imagination. And I think that’s so cool to think that we’ve contributed a small part to that.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: As you mentioned, the series ends on a happy ending, but there’s a lot to come, right? There’s this sort of plan that Shane and Ilya have about how they can stay together. So I’m curious, going into a second season, are there any themes or ideas that you either didn’t get to explore or are looking forward to exploring after this first season?
JACOB TIERNEY: Oh, so many. Long Game is such a good book, and what’s good about it is that it continues to take them seriously, and so it’s, what did they do by the end of the first season is that they’re out to four people, and they’re out to each other in terms of they’re in love, and that’s great.
And then it’s, I think as most of us know who are adults, it takes more than that to make something work, right? It takes a lot of other things, and so what does the rest of it look like now? And I think as people who’ve read The Long Game know, it’s not as freewheeling joyful as Heated Rivalry is. And there’s a lot of difficulty along the way, but I love that, you know.
And A, I don’t need to do the same thing again, but B, it’s also like I want to take Shane and Ilya seriously. I love that. That’s my great privilege. My great joy as a storyteller is to get to think about these guys and to reground them and do right by them and do right by the decisions they make and to be interested in them. So yeah, so that’s what’s coming.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I love that. I’m excited to see some of the grittier edges. ‘Cause, you know, it feels so honeymoon and joyful at the end, and I think we’ve all been there, and it’s like, I don’t know, the interesting test of love to me comes, like, years after that. So, you know, I wish I had Shane’s gumption. I love that. Only two hours away. It’s just, it’s beautiful. ‘
Jacob Tierney, I’ve had so much fun talking to you, and I’m really so thankful that you came by to talk to us about this incredible show. I was blown away. You know, you want to approach new queer content with a sort of jaded weariness of being like, “I’ve seen it all. I was there when Looking premiered.”
But it’s, I felt things watching this series I haven’t felt before. And so as you said, you know, whether a story is new or it’s been told 1,000 times, telling it this way just felt so special and really impactful, so thank you.
JACOB TIERNEY: Thank you. I appreciate that. And again, I’m very grateful to be here, and truly, like, of all the things I never thought would happen, winning a Peabody for this show, it’s genuinely what an honor, what an amazing feeling, and I’m so grateful. So thanks for having me.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Thank you so much to Jacob Tierney for joining us today. It has been a genuine privilege getting to chat with him, and thank you for listening. A couple of takeaways from this conversation. First, what a year for comedians making waves in new genres. I love how Jacob’s comedy background brings humanity and levity to Heated Rivalry. Can we get a socially awkward Canadian and a sarcastic Russian having fun? Is that too much to ask?
And second, Jacob’s hope for what the industry takes away from this series should be shouted from the rooftops. To paraphrase what he said, Heated Rivalry works because it feels refreshing and different, because someone took a chance on a showrunner that was new to the romance genre, and two actors that weren’t all that famous, to tell a different kind of queer love story without censoring or whitewashing the source material.Making more shows about hockey or more romances shouldn’t be the takeaway here. It’s take more risks on new ideas.
For a lot of queer viewers, a story about hiding who you are and only feeling like you can be yourself in secret will certainly resonate. Honoring the specificity of that experience is so important, from showing inter-familial conflict, to exploring queer sex for the first time, to finally working up the courage to tell a friend who you really are.
But Jacob has found a universality in this queer rivals to lovers story that’s obviously resonated with audiences everywhere, and there’s something nice about seeing people all over the world, across the spectrum of genders and sexualities, rooting for two queer people in love. Thanks again for joining us this episode.
I haven’t heard the buzzer yet, so it’s time for one more segment.
Because the Peabodys are decided unanimously, every episode we’ll bring you the quote that we chose unanimously as our most disruptive moment.
JACOB TIERNEY: I’ll watch a cooking show, although those are getting increasingly smutty.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Join us next time as we sit down with Lee Sung Jin, creator of the critically acclaimed series Beef. Season two is a dark, comedic, and existential journey that takes you on the chaotic ride of capitalism.
LEE SUNG JIN: Throughout human history, we keep telling the same stories: class, marriage, love, being honest. Like, there’s six or seven main themes that humans, since we gathered around the fire in a cave, keep telling, and I realize, like, oh, we just keep doing that because that’s how dumb we are.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: We Disrupt This Broadcast is a Peabody and Center for Media and Social Impact production hosted by me, Gabe González, with on air contributions from Caty Borum and Jeffrey Jones. The show is brought to you by executive producers, Caty Borum and Jeffrey Jones. Managing producer Jordana Jason. Writers: Sasha Stewart, Jordana Jason, Bethany Hall, Jennifer Keishin Armstrong, and myself, Gabe González. Consulting producers Jennifer Keishin Armstrong and Bethany Hall. Researcher, Riley McLaughlin. Graphic designer: Olivia Klaus. Operations producer: Varsha Ramani. The marketing and communications team: Christine Drayer and Tunishia Singleton. From PRX: the team is Terrence Bernardo, Jennie Cataldo, Edwin Ochoa and Amber Walker. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.