JEN STATSKY: This is a relationship between two women that is primarily about their work. It’s not about their stories, about love and family and raising children. Of course, those are valid important stories, but we tend to get a lot of them about women and way fewer stories about women pursuing their career passions and their dreams and their art forms. And so something we are really proud of is that this is a show about two women who are working on their craft and are pursuing their dream of working.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome to We Disrupt this Broadcast. I’m your host, Gabe González. In the world of comedy, no insult stings more than being called one thing in particular, a hack. It can mean a lot of things, but it usually implies you go for the cheap laugh, right? Grasp the lowest hanging fruit and throw it at your audience until they’re covered in it.
It also means you could be outdated, basically, the comedy equivalent of skinny jeans on a zoomer. And yes, that does still happen. If you try searching for Hacks on the internet now, however, you won’t be routed to a YouTube clip of some guy making jokes about his wife. You will be immediately directed toward one of the smartest and sharpest shows on TV right now: Hacks.
Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello and Paul W. Downs turned the word into an award-winning series. And today we’re interviewing co-creator Jen Statsky. The show follows Deborah Vance, an over the hill comedian, played by Jean Smart, who is trying to revive her career in Las Vegas with the help of the entitled and outcast young comedy writer Ava Daniels, played by Hannah Einbinder, who is desperate to feel relevant again after being fired from her latest TV gig.
But Hacks is first and foremost about two women finding themselves at their lowest and reluctantly admitting that their friendship could change them both for the better. The world of comedy is the lens through which we see their story play out, magnifying themes like ageism, misogyny, and homophobia that impact Deborah and Ava personally in their work and in their friendship.
After we speak with Jen Statsky, we’ll hear from one comedian who is definitely not a hack. The legend herself, Margaret Cho. Margaret is a true comedy pioneer who’s an inspiration for a whole generation of young comics, so grab a seat Little Debbie’s, there’s no two drink minimum for this show, but it’s definitely ladies night at the clurb.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome back. Today we’re talking to Hacks co-creator Jen Statsky, about her own journey in the comedy world, how the Peabody Award-winning show nails its balance of comedy and commentary, and why surprisingly, at the end of the day, women comedians are just comedians. Who would’ve thought?
So we are here with Hacks, co-creator Jen Statsky. Jen, how are you doing?
JEN STATSKY: I’m doing well. How are you?
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I’m really excited to have you here. Hacks is one of those shows that I can’t stop talking about at work or at home. So when it comes to Hacks, I know a lot of people have asked you about the inspiration behind the show, often hoping that you might pinpoint one specific comic that inspired Deborah Vance. But I am interested in asking about the origin of the idea. I’m wondering what clicked for you in a way that said, this is the story. It’s about this relationship between two women, two comedians of different generations.
JEN STATSKY: Yes. As we’ve said before, the show kind of was born out of this conversation about female comedians and how they really hadn’t gotten their due and their male counterparts were so, and are so revered. But yet there are these women who have been for years pounding the pavement, making their way kind of thanklessly.
And we were also, you know, in a moment back kind of when the show was being conceived, where a lot of male comedians, you know were getting, once again, we were having this renaissance of TV shows about male comedians. There was Louie and there, even though he’s not a comedian, there was Master of None with Aziz like, and yet again, just like back when like Seinfeld and all those guys were getting shows, it felt like there were just far few shows focusing on female standups. And it was born out of a conversation of appreciating women like that.
Not just standups, just women in the arts in general, who are far less likely to be praised, as you know, quote unquote geniuses as their male counterparts are. And then I think the moment the show really clicked though was when the character of Ava came into focus. Because I think, you know, even myself, I was at the time, this was 10 years ago, I was in my late twenties and I was myself not as appreciative perhaps of the women who came before me. And it was an interesting moment of looking at yourself honestly and saying like, oh yeah, how much have I also participated in the way society views these women and kind of doesn’t give as much weight to their accomplishments?
And so the character of Ava really came out of us talking about what would it be like if these two women butted heads, and in butting heads cracked each other open, and those cracks allowed for change to happen? So I think that was what really got us. Like this dynamic between them just was so instantly funny and interesting and generative to me, Paul and Lucia. That’s how it really took off.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, I love that phrase “cracking each other open,” ’cause there is this kind of inherent odd couple dynamic when they first meet each other, right? It’s like, oh, these women of different generations and different styles and approaches to comedy and different ways of dealing with the industry. But it’s funny, you kind of start seeing the parallels in their stories, right? They both deeply desire acceptance and have been shunned for different reasons.
I think Ava goes the farthest in the pilot where I think she stops in traffic and jumps over a gate to try to get a job to reenter the comedy scene, which is a desperation I have felt. I don’t know if I’ve ever acted on it that way, but yeah, it’s very palpable. And so I’m curious, how did you find the moment where that cracking open happens in the pilot, when that sort of playful jousting kind of reveals a moment of maybe empathy between them or connection?
JEN STATSKY: I think that for us it was always, the way in would be their shared language. And their shared language is a love of jokes. It’s a love of comedy. And that manifests in that scene in the pilot where they first meet them going toe to toe and sparring.
And that was always kind of the idea that Deborah would find a worthy person to go toe to toe with in Ava, and that would excite her and that would light her up in a way that she hadn’t been lit up in quite some time.
CLIP: Hacks
I think you better leave.
Yeah.
Can I show you to the door? Or would you like to go back up the chimney?
Oh no. I know my way out by the way. So cool. They let you move into a Cheesecake Factory.
Oh, is that where you wait tables? That seems like a better fit.
Oh yeah, I agree. You classist monster. I’d rather slang bang bang chicken and shrimp all day than work here. I mean, fuck. What is this? 50 tassels on one couch? Even Liberace would think it’s a bit much.
Oh no, you’re incorrect. He actually loved it. He did poppers on that couch in ‘85.
Cool. I’m glad Liberace’s butthole was nice and loose in your house. Maybe you should have joined him since yours is obviously tight as fuck. Oh, hey, before I leave, did you wanna inspect my bag? Maybe I should just piss in a cup. Uh, you know what, I’m gonna go ahead. I’m just gonna leave a stool sample on your lawn.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: So Season 4 is out now on Max, but I wanted to look back at Season 3 because the entire series has had some wonderful cameos, but season three had one memorable one for me and obviously Margaret Cho, who has also been on the series, will be on this episode, but I did wanna talk about Christina Hendricks. As the gorgeous golf queen slash fracking mommy.
JEN STATSKY: Yes. That is one of my favorite episodes we’ve ever done. Yeah.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Mine too. I think it’s amazing ’cause it’s a, she’s playing this like bonkers character, and there’s this amazing sexual tension with Ava while Ava’s pretending to be a golf caddy, but Christina Hendricks’ character kind of collapses Ava’s worldview surrounding the politics of queer people when they hook up. And Ava finds out she’s like a bad person. That’s part of what fascinated me about the character in the storyline. But I’m wondering from a writing perspective, what is your method for tackling these satirical moments on the series that kind of have to balance cultural critique and comedy?
JEN STATSKY: Yeah, I mean, honestly, the truth is that, and I think this is our saving grace probably, is that we really do always come at it from a comedic perspective first. I think that if we were coming at things, and we’ve certainly even by the way, tried to do this, and then I think we end up abandoning those paths because it’s not necessarily the right way for us to do it, is if we’re on a soapbox and saying like, oh, we wanna say this, or we wanna say that, or we wanna make fun of this group. Like, I think it would feel false because you would feel us. You would feel Paul, Lucia and Jen versus Ava and Deborah. And so we really try to come at it from a character comedy perspective first.
And so that story in particular, it’s like, for us, it was just so funny to think of Ava having to do this job because she, you know, one of the things I relate to a lot about Ava is that she has this deep, deep desire to be a good person, yet it is so, as she says in that episode, it’s impossible. In the world of late stage capitalism, it’s very difficult to be conscientious about all your choices and make sure you’re doing things ethically and you’re bound to mess up. And that really gets her twisted.
So that for us, was kind of the root of it is like, oh, this thing about Ava, which is such a good trait, she wants to be a good person, she has this worldview of like, this is what’s right and this is what’s wrong. Fracking is wrong. Certainly I would never hook up with an oil baron. But then she meets this person and she finds herself attracted to her. And it’s, that for us, it really was born out of both the comedy of that and the character of it, the central trait of Ava’s and how could we exploit that and play with it.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I did want to talk about another episode that I think touches on very contemporary topics, but shows how Hacks kind of tackles it very deftly without hopping on that soapbox you talked about. I think in general, the series does a very brilliant job of showing Deborah and Ava being both right and wrong in equal measure. Right. It’s the complexity and imperfections of being a person. You’re trying, you’re gonna fuck it up sometimes.
JEN STATSKY: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Yeah. But season three, episode eight, where Deborah is called out outta college for past jokes that are racist and ableist is really interesting to me. And it’s interesting because in this episode, Deborah kind of learns that accountability isn’t necessarily an attack when you’re already rich, right? Ava kind of hammers that home, but Ava also kind of learns to give herself a little more room to forgive or accept Deborah’s imperfections.
So it feels like a very nuanced and sensitive depiction of what a lot of people call cancel culture in comedy. Which I feel like is a very inaccurate, imprecise, umbrella term that can encompass so many things. So I’m wondering like, how did you all navigate deciding to tackle this episode and how’d you approach it as a writer’s room when it feels so heated and so current?
JEN STATSKY: Yeah. Season One, we were like, what if Deborah goes back to our alma mater, to get an honorary degree, and then the students protest ’cause of old material? And it just felt very true to who this character is, that she would have material that would not have aged well.
We didn’t wanna do the episode just because we wanted to do an episode on quote unquote cancel culture. In fact, if you asked me, do you wanna do an episode on cancel culture? I’d say Absolutely not. I don’t wanna talk about that.
But the thing we really wanted to explore was this idea of, yeah, accountability does not mean that you are being attacked. And I think a lot of comedians and people with a platform forget that having that platform is a great responsibility. And if you are using your platform and you do something or say something that hurts someone that doesn’t mean that it’s an attack on you holistically as a person. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It just means, let’s look at this one thing you said or one idea you’re putting out into the world, and is it punching down? Is it taking advantage of a marginalized group, or is it just speaking not true to people’s lived experiences?
What we also wanted to show and really empathize with was Deborah’s struggle with it. It’s incredibly difficult to look at yourself and be like, Ugh, I did the wrong thing, and I’m going to publicly admit I did the wrong thing, and I’m gonna take ownership that that hurt people. Like I understand why so many people put their walls up and can’t face that because it just it’s really hard to do. And so, but yet it is to me what comes with the privilege of the platform. If you are, just like Ava says, like you’re rich and you get to make these jokes, and the flip side of that is people are allowed to have a reaction to it.
CLIP: Hacks
Thank you for coming. Um, I had a speech prepared, but I think I owe you more than my explanations. I am sorry. I. I looked back at those jokes and I’m embarrassed. I wish I could, uh, donate a library or buy you all ice cream or something. Make it all go away, but I can’t. Right. Okay. Um, I think I’ll just listen because I’ve said enough. And to be totally honest, I’m really afraid of saying the wrong thing.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: So we kind of touched a bit on Deborah’s evolution, season one to season three. I’m curious, how do you think Ava’s character changed over that time, and where is she sort of at when we meet her at this juncture?
JEN STATSKY: I think Ava’s evolution over the three seasons is really understanding that she learns the value of just working hard for the sake of working hard. Because Deborah is someone who, even if her material is hacky, she works hard. And yes, she’s on the fringes of the entertainment industry. She’s not cool the way Ava wants to be cool at the start of the series, but Ava realizes that the gift and the joy comes from the act of creating. It’s not the result. It’s not the praise, it’s not the accolades. It’s the creation and the process of that is the reward. That is the thing you have to be loving and enjoying.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, I love that. It’s so fascinating and it does feel like she learns to offer Deborah a bit more grace, right. I think early on, Deborah’s hitting her heart and you’re kinda like, oh god, poor Ava. But it really, I think it plays with their power dynamic throughout the seasons in a way that you know, as you said, gives them the room to be both wrong and right. And we can still kind of, you know, see the truth in this relationship and that connection.
JEN STATSKY: Yeah. Ava at the beginning, you know, is very judgmental of Deborah. She doesn’t, like you said, give Deborah grace. She just goes, “Oh, the QVC mumu lady,” which is, you know. And going back to what I said at the beginning, it’s the way we kind of are way more inclined to write off women than men.
Like, you know, it’s way easier for us for some reason to take women less seriously. And so that’s what Ava does. She really dismisses Deborah at first, and she doesn’t know all she’s been through. And as she learns, all she’s been through and what she’s dealt with, she gains appreciation for that and then realizes in turn she should be less immediately judgmental.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: On that point, it does really feel like, you know what you mentioned about it being easier to dismiss women in that industry, I think it’s a truth that we can all see and acknowledge, but I do think that sometimes it creates a kind of scarcity mindset, this kind of crab in the barrel framework.
And I’m wondering if part of the reason we see Deborah and Ava engage in some morally questionable behavior in the early seasons is due to this framework. And I’m wondering if that is true, why do you think that women and sometimes other marginalized groups view one another as competition rather than potential allies when they’re facing these same hurdles?
JEN STATSKY: The system sets it up that way. The system says, well, there’s only one spot for you, so fight amongst yourselves. We’re not gonna think about creating more spots. Now, of course, we’ve made some progress in this way. But that’s what it is. It’s the system goes, well, that’s your problem. There’s only one. We’ll give you one spot. And it’s really the tearing down of those systems and those structures to include everybody that has been the great challenge and continues to be the great challenge.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, and it feels like both Deborah and Ava’s approaches to tearing down these systems or changing the way these systems work almost make them kind of metaphors or like avatars for two, maybe different generations or ideology regarding feminism and identity.
JEN STATSKY: Mm-hmm. You know, Deborah never set out to be a trailblazing woman. She just loved comedy and wanted to do comedy. And Ava loves comedy and just wants to do comedy. And this is a relationship between two women that is primarily about their work. It’s not about their stories, about love and family, and raising children.
Of course those are valid important stories, but we tend to get a lot of them about women and way fewer stories about women pursuing their career passions and their dreams and their art forms. And so something we are really proud of is that this is a show about two women who are working on their craft and are pursuing their dream of working. And it’s, all those other things are less important to them than how much they love this art form.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: And it does feel like, you know what you mentioned about having those tough conversations. It can sometimes feel like infighting that impedes the progress to getting the prize, but it’s also the thing that allows this sort of intergenerational learning, like whether we’re looking at it on a personal level. You know, between Ava or Deborah or, or looking at generations and waves of feminism, you have to confront these tensions in the room or else you’re never kind of gonna get there. And it does feel like there is an exchange between Deborah and Ava that kind of models or maps the potential for making those conversations fruitful,
JEN STATSKY: hopefully. Yes. It’s very hard to do. It’s very hard to come at a conversation with the vulnerability and openness to being wrong, and I think Ava and Deborah, even though they’re both stubborn and they don’t always come to it easily, they do come at each other and allow each other’s perspectives to seep into their brains.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Man, it is wild the things that we have to grapple with when we just wanna make people laugh.
JEN STATSKY: I know.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Being a clown takes a lot of thought, y’all. It really does. It really does. Well, Jen Statsky, thank you so much for joining us on We Disrupt this Broadcast.
JEN STATSKY: Thanks for having me.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: I am so excited we got to talk to Jen Statsky about all things Hacks, particularly how it channeled a reappraisal of her own biases as a young comic into a thoughtful and deeply funny exploration of friendship and comradery between two women of different generations, women who happened to love the same thing, making people laugh. So stick around. We’ll be right back with our next guest. The hilariously brilliant Margaret Cho.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Welcome back and happy Hacks day. We can’t get enough of this show over at We Disrupt this Broadcast, so after an illuminating conversation with Jen Statsky, we thought it would be perfect to bring in another very funny woman who’s been making waves in the comedy world for decades, Margaret Cho. I recently had the privilege of seeing her in New York at the Public Theater for her show Margaret’s Gay Sons. Yes, that is the title, and yes, it is brilliant, featuring queer Asian comics, Dylan Adler and Sam Oh. So please enjoy this conversation with Margaret Cho and our executive producer and executive director of the Center for Media and Social Impact, Caty Borum.
CATY BORUM: We are thrilled today to welcome the notorious Margaret Cho to We Disrupt this Broadcast. The focus of today’s episode is the remarkable tenacity of women comedians making it in a showbiz world that could easily keep them down. Often does. But sometimes doesn’t manage to do it, and there’s no one better to reflect with us than this legend who is not stopping or slowing down after more than 40 years, literally doing all the things. So welcome, Margaret Cho.
MARGARET CHO: Thank you very much.
CATY BORUM: Your comedy career is just, it’s so prolific. I mean, literally everything from broadcast network comedy, to film, to multiple sold out standup tours that become documentaries, to a prestigious residency at Joe’s Pub. So how do you approach your work to not only stay truly in the game decade after decade, but really to actually kind of recreate the rules for yourself and your comedy?
MARGARET CHO: I am trying to take on right now, all of this stuff happening politically that is making me so angry that I have to write jokes. ‘Cause I think what’s happening now is that we have the richest people in the world taking food outta the mouths of the poorest people in the world. And it is so upsetting to me. And the one thing they hate is to be made fun of.
CATY BORUM: That’s right.
MARGARET CHO: So how can I really viciously make fun of them? ‘Cause that’s the one thing they can’t afford, is jokes at their expense. So it’s the best thing ’cause it’s really like, oh, okay. So that’s what I go for. And then, but I have a practice, like every morning before I get up out of bed, I write a joke.
CATY BORUM: Wow.
MARGARET CHO: It doesn’t that be funny. It can be stupid, whatever, but it gets the pump moving. It gets it going so that I can actually figure out what it’s gonna be. So, you know, it’s a constant keeping the energy of what is funny going through my mind. I’m trying that.
CATY BORUM: I wrote a book called The Revolution will be Hilarious, and one of my entire chapters is on comedy in the face of authoritarianism. And this idea that it’s not even the critique that is so troubling to would be dictators, it is simply the fact that people are not afraid. And if you’re not afraid enough to make a joke, that is just too much. It’s not even just the disagreement, it’s just the not being afraid.
MARGARET CHO: Yeah, not being afraid. And it’s like it is where the joke comes from. Like if it comes from the oppressed, if it comes from the people that are trying to get power. It’s so powerful. When it comes the other way. That’s why like nobody in the Trump administration is funny. Because it’s like all they do is punch down. Like that joke that guy tried to make about Zelensky not wearing a suit. It’s not funny because you’re punching down. Like it just doesn’t make any sense to make a joke like that And you become the laughingstock rather than the person you’re trying to ridicule So I think it’s such a statement on comedy in the face of authoritarianism. Like when Elon says, “legalize comedy!” It’s not funny. Nothing they do is a way to attack power because what’s inherently funny is the lower classes attacking the upper classes. That’s always going to be the hit.
CATY BORUM: One of the things that you’ve been known for and I am positive, has meant so much for other women, comedians of color, queer folks because you have always subverted the power in the joke. Right. And I think you said, I hope we’re not landing on the idea that to be edgy is simply to be, you know, homophobic or racist. Like that’s not edgy. That’s actually, you know, like not very good comedy.
MARGARET CHO: No.
CATY BORUM: So, just wanting you to reflect a little bit on your decision making, you know, consistently to do jokes that are really subverting the sources. Who has the power in your jokes?
MARGARET CHO: Yeah. I mean, that’s always really important. I mean, I think because I grew up as a young comic going to comedy clubs and then all of it in like the 1980s was white male comics making fun of Asian drivers. And then I would have to go on after and the audience would be embarrassed because I was Asian, because they had been laughing for hours about these Asian driver jokes. So I would open, I would say, “My name is Margaret Cho and I drive very well,” and they would be also embarrassed again, but laughing.
So then it was like my own presence. Just the fact that I was there was already resistance. Like my very presence was a kind of resistance. So like why can’t everything about what I do be a form of resistance? Whether it’s always punching up and not punching down. Always making sure that it’s not what you think it is, it’s more gratifying if it’s not what you think it’s going to be. Yeah. Like the joke is unexpected. That’s always the best way to go about it.
CLIP: Margaret Cho PSYCHO
Sometimes there’s a good couple like a beautiful Asian woman with like a beautiful white man, and you know it’s nice. But sometimes you’ll see like a really beautiful Asian woman, and she’s with the most fucked up face, broke down, busted white man. And I’m just like Bitch, are your eyes that small?
CATY BORUM: So in an earlier part of this episode, we’re talking to Jen Statsky from Hacks. And we should note for our listeners that you have a funny appearance in Hacks that I do separately wanna know if it was based on your standup ’cause you did a whole scene…
MARGARET CHO: Yeah.
CATY BORUM: Oh, I love it.
MARGARET CHO: Yeah. And I love that show and I love Jean and I love Hannah and I love, I just love the world of this comic, you know, and it’s legendary comic who is like kind of buffeted by her, like past triumphs, but then also trying to sort of relate to the new generation. It’s just so amazing. They get it really right. Like it’s so real to the way that women have long been treated in comedy and have long had to endure. So I think it’s really spot on.
CATY BORUM: The Hacks world and really like the Deborah Vance character who’s based on sort of an amalgam of so many different women comedians, Joan Rivers among them, of course. But thinking about everything that you’ve seen and done on your journey, how are the rules still different for women comedians in the business, if you think they are, if things changed in a way that feels positive to you?
MARGARET CHO: Well, there’s just less access, you know, like, there’s just like, it’s still really hard to be able to find stage time as women in comedy. You know, like I do many shows in clubs in particular in L.A. and like it’s, you’ll very rarely share the stage bill with a woman.
CATY BORUM: Still.
MARGARET CHO: And these are big stars. These are big stars. It’s just like very, like, it’s still very restrictive and it’s still very male. But the thing about it is I think that we are just, we’re still outnumbered, but we’re working all the time. You know, we’re still out there doing stuff. I mean, that’s why also, we’re so close. Like we’re very women in comedy we’re very close friends even though we don’t get to see each other as often as we would like to. It’s ’cause we’re all working.
CATY BORUM: I love that. And actually, you know what occurs to me in that way that like when we first meet the Deborah character, one thing that we know about her for sure is that she is always working. And it’s not just her show. She does the QVC thing. She does, she’s finding a way.
MARGARET CHO: Yeah, it’s the resourcefulness and it’s like we’ve gotta find a path within no matter what. You know? It’s the tenacity, which Joan was all about, you know, she just went after all of it. And she didn’t consider herself too good above it.Some of these guys are like above it, you know? They would never do stuff like that, but we will do, we’ll take anything, which is great.
CATY BORUM: Yeah, it’s like women in any industry, right? Mm-hmm. There’s a different hustle, for sure.
MARGARET CHO: Yeah, yeah.
CATY BORUM: Yeah. No one’s above the QVC gig.
MARGARET CHO: I love it. It’s so great.
CATY BORUM: And you’ve created so many opportunities for amazing young comedians. Like for example, Dylan Adler and Sam Oh and a show called Margaret’s Gay Sons. So why do you feel so strongly about mentoring other comedians, particularly queer and Asian, but really just in general in the comedy community?
MARGARET CHO: Well, it’s job security because I’m gonna hit them up for parts in their films when I’m old and they’re super famous ’cause they’re going to be very powerful and famous. So I’m gonna make sure I ride those coattails while they’re still small enough and I can push everybody out of the way. But it’s true, like I do that like constantly, whether it’s Joel Kim Booster or Bowen Yang or Atsuko Okatsuka, like I’m always just sliding into their DMs to make sure that I can get into their projects. But they’re really inspiring to me too because they were inspired by my work. And they have the same message that I do, so I’m keeping the legacy going by supporting them. It’s really cool.
CATY BORUM: Yeah. I love that. If you had had a network that was like Dylan and Sam and others like around you when you were really like the only in lots of different categories, you were the only, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve ever reflected on how different would it have felt to you? Your talent was your talent, so that I’m sure you would’ve succeeded in the same way. But how would that have been different for you?
MARGARET CHO: I would’ve loved that. Like for me, it was so gratifying to finally watch Baby Cobra, which is Ali Wong’s first big special because for me it was like the first time I could sit down and watch an Asian woman just kill it. Just be absolutely outrageous and foul and crass and wonderful, beautiful, while pregnant and super sexy and hot. Like to me it was, I was like, oh, is this what I do? Like, I was like, this is what it feels like to watch me, you know? ‘Cause I had never seen it. And it was like I was crying, like out of gratitude, out of like, it took 20 years to see another Asian woman do that.
Like, and I was like so excited. And you know, she is like my eldest daughter. She is my proudest, I’m like so beaming with pride. She’s a true American treasure. But you know, like, yeah, it would’ve made all the difference to have a mentor. I mean, I had mentors. I had people who were incredibly supportive, including Joan Rivers and Rosie O’Donnell and Whoopi Goldberg, and people were there for me for sure. But you know, it would’ve been meant a lot to have an Asian American woman there.
CATY BORUM: Well, I love the idea, you actually just raised a really nice point, which is this idea of mentorship as totally a reciprocal game. And it does really work that way. So I wanna ask, you’re currently on tour for a few more months and we wanted to know how you have fashioned that tour?
MARGARET CHO: I mean, it’s just the outrage of what is happening, you know? So I think we’re at war and we have to forge our weapons, and mine happens to be just really crass jokes at other people’s expense, and that’s what it’s all directed at. Now is the time to jokes are really ammunition and we’ve got to fire away, like really assault people with it. We are sliding into fascism. We’re actually already there. You know, in states are talking about punishing women who have abortions with the death penalty, you know, we’re actually facing this.
It’s not a game. They’re trying to make sure that women don’t vote, they’re trying to make sure, like, we can’t, we already are taking rights away from trans people. We’re already not allowing people to have their proper gender markers on their official documents. Like, already, that’s already happened. So, you know, they’re about to get rid of gay marriage, they’re about to get rid of women voting altogether.
Like, it’s like an assault that we have to assault back. So anything that we can do to battle this, and jokes are really, that’s like the front line. That’s the thing they hate the most. That’s the thing they fear the most. And that’s, um, the most powerful form of ammunition you can do is jokes. So that to me is true patriotism when you use what you are good at to really fight for what’s right. And so comics unite and go for it.
CATY BORUM: So it occurred to us thinking about your career, that it’s not just so many years of being vital and contemporary, but so many different things that you’ve done. You’ve just been on the road for like, you can’t even count, right, how many times you’ve been on the road. So do you have a favorite or a couple favorite moments that were either hilarious or maybe inspiring what you meant to someone or any standout moments that you remember?
MARGARET CHO: There have been so many things where people have said, I was able to come out to my family because of what you do in your comedy. Or, I’m able to watch a special with my family and connect with them and we can find some common ground. You know, to me that’s really meaningful.
There was one young woman who wrote to me, her father had passed away and he was gay and they had a very difficult relationship. And so after he had died, she went to go see my film I’m the One that I Want in the theater, and she really had a connection to him watching. ‘Cause he really loved my work. And she was, you know, able to sort of deal with the grief of losing him through my comedy; which is really powerful when people feel they can have a kind of intimate moment with somebody else through what you’ve been able to do.
So I’m really inspired by that, but mostly I’m so inspired by all of these comedians who saw me and decided, oh, well, I’m going to do that. You know, whether that’s Hari Kondabolu, or W. Kamau Bell, or Dylan, or Sam Oh or Sabrina Wu or Robin Tran. Those are all my children, so I’m so grateful for that.
CATY BORUM: Say that we had a group of up and coming comedians who are watching you and watching Dylan what advice would you have for them today on making it?
MARGARET CHO: Just do it. I mean, just go after it every day. Comedy is so mysterious, ’cause it’s always evolving, it’s always growing, and it’s always moving around because it changes with society and so you have to always adapt. You constantly have to learn. And we have an opportunity to because now, like the way that technology exists, we are all up to the minute with news. Everybody in the world knows exactly what’s happening with everybody else in the world constantly. So you are saving time with setups. You don’t really have to explain things to people.
So take that opportunity and, you know, go after comedy really hard. It’s a mysterious art form because it is not one that can be completed without an audience. Like you can’t do comedy by yourself. It just doesn’t work. Part of it is other people, and so you have to go out and do it every day, and you have to be reflected back all the time.
CATY BORUM: Well thank you so much Margaret Cho. It has just been a total joy and we are all just such big fans, and the fact that we contained ourselves and our squealing over you is, we are to be commended.
MARGARET CHO: That’s right. Thank you. Thank you so much.
CATY BORUM: Thank you.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Thank you again for joining us on this episode of We Disrupt this Broadcast. I had so much fun this episode, partly because I love comedy and it’s always nice to welcome another comedian into the mix, but mostly because our conversations with Jen Statsky and Margaret Cho felt so interconnected.
In Cho, we’ve gotten almost anti-Deborah, a comedian, actively seeking out collaborations with younger comics who values their voice and work and potential without having to look at a list of credits under their names. But much like Deborah, Margaret Cho embraces the dedication to the craft and the willingness to adapt that’s necessary to stay in the game.
What struck me most about today’s episode is that Hacks is a very funny show, but whether you are a comedian or not, it also offers us something worth thinking about: the importance of knowing when we’re wrong and finding room to grow and learn from that. When we meet Ava and Deborah at the start of Hacks, they’re both stubborn, confrontational, and deeply goal oriented, often at the expense of their relationships.
What’s important is that Deborah and Ava use their lowest moment as a springboard. An opportunity to look at themselves, however reluctantly and say, Hey, maybe I’ve still got things to learn. Maybe I need to reframe the way I’ve been going about my life. And ultimately, that’s what it means to be in comedy.
The Peabody Awards are decided unanimously. So to close out our episode, I bring you, We Disrupt this Broadcast‘s unanimous decision where we unanimously pick the most disruptive line of the day:
MARGARET CHO: I think we’re at war and we have to forge our weapons, and mine happens to be just really crass jokes at other people’s expense.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: Make sure to join us on our next episode where we’ll speak with Nida Manzoor, creator and showrunner of the Peabody Award-winning series, We Are Lady Parts.
NIDA MANZOOR: I think it’s that subversion where, you know, Muslim women are always considered as being oppressed or somehow either villains or kind of victims, and given no nuance, and just shown in this very reductive fashion. And for me, I just wanted to explode that and I wanted to show these women as joyful, as anarchic, as spirited, as sort of contradictory, you know? And I thought, what is the most playful, anarchic thing I can think of? And punk and punk music has that humor and it has that vitality, and it just spoke to me.
GABE GONZÁLEZ: We Disrupt This broadcast is a Peabody and Center for Media and Social Impact production hosted by me, Gabe González, with on air contributions from Caty Borum and Jeffrey Jones. The show is brought to you by executive producers, Caty Borum, Jeffrey Jones, and Bethany Hall. Producer Jordana Jason. Writers: Sasha Stewart, Jordana Jason, Bethany Hall, Jennifer Keishin Armstrong, and myself, Gabe González. Consulting producer: Jennifer Keishin Armstrong. Graphic designer: Olivia Klaus. Operations producer: Varsha Ramani. The marketing and communications team: Christine Dreyer and Tunishia Singleton. From PRX: the team is Terrence Bernardo, Jennie Cataldo, Edwin Ochoa and Amber Walker. The executive producer of PRX Productions is Jocelyn Gonzales.